The Longest Now

Chinese philosophers debated for centuries whether one discovers the nature of the universe by investigating oneself or by investigating the outer world. I don’t have a dog in that fight (I might say both grant equal power of discovery when approached properly), but I do like poring through random selections to get a feel for an expansive whole (yes, I want a Special:Random for the universe).

Sometimes I do that reflexively while thinking, practiving a little Langerfulness. So it was that I found myself tonight seven pages into the discussion threads for the YouTube video “Why Chuck [Norris] endorsed Mike [Huckabee] – Episode One [of Five]“, where I ran across the following exchange between BuckDresser and jtm04d; those of you who know my favorite tests of familiarity with good scientific method may appreciate it…

BD : Being a professional engineer, a nuclear scientist, and an agnostic until age 40 when I “for fun” did the research to realize that the God of the Bible is real…I realize this: “A little science estranges a man from God. A lot of science brings him back.” You don’t need to leave your brain behind to appreciate the Bible – in fact, unless you challenge the conventional wisdom of sound-byte “scientists” you probably never will.

jtm: I doubt any rational scientist would believe the earth is 6000 years old(bible) and evolution is false[Huckabee :-)]. The Scientific community is whole heartedly supportive of evolution. I’m a Biology major and we study evidence for evolution on the chromosomal level. On the bible if you want to defend it you have an extremely difficult job ahead of you.

BD: jtm04d, mutation & natural selection are real – evolution is contrary to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. On the chromosomal level you witness rearrangements, not new more highly ordered structure. Evolution implies an increase in order. The 6000 years is the date when Adam was created, not the earth. You might read “the Science of God” by Gerald Schroeder (not a Christian) which is a plausible reconciliation of a 15 billion year universe, the 6000 years + 7 days of creation. Seek & guess what..

jtm: Buck I think your a smart guy, much smarter than the creationists I usually debate on my campus. But the fossil record does not agree with your 6000 year old Adam theory. In fact the record points to Homo Sapiens being around 250,000 years. And I know you think homophobia, misogyny, racism, genocide and totalitarianism are wrong too, but the bible contradicts you on all those points. I’m just saying its time we educated people reevaluate Bronze Age texts.

jtm: oh and my chromosomal evidence has nothing to do with rearrangements during Meiosis or even the similarities between primate DNA and human DNA(though they are relevant), I could give you a link to a lecture on that if ur interested, oh and add slavery to the list of immoralities the bible approves of

BD: jtm, I must sign off for several days, but… a debate is just a competition, & no debate will lead you to truth. An open mind, enough open books, and a humble heart might. My experience is, that until the Lord created a spirit of life in me, I had no idea I had been dead. And I still don’t know why He did it – an arrogant SOB like me didn’t/doesn’t deserve such grace. But He’s the King, & He does what He will. Thank God! Good night, jtm. Buck.

jtm: You’re right about debates, and I respect your belief and your experience. But its time our society had an honest debate about the bible and religion and its effects. I personally turned from religion when a friend of mine was murdered by someone on a divine mission in Iraq. I’m not saying that all theists are terrorists, but it made look at my beliefs outside the box.

BD: I’m sorry. That misguided fanatic may represent the face of religion, but not God. Don’t let him kill you along with your friend. Your mind and your heart testify that the Creator is not some atavistic being which we in our current highly-evolved state can now judge. At best, we may be better positioned to understand Him than our fathers could thousands of years ago. At least from a scientific & historical knowledge perspective – I’m not sure our hearts have evolved much at all. G’night for real

jtm: Buck, I can honestly say you give the strongest argument for theism than I’ve heard from any of my professors or scholars

jtm: PS: entropy does not refute evolution, don’t you think the scientific community recognizes that? or do you think that I and the scientists are part of an “evil conspiracy” to “Satanize” the world. As for your argument of irreducible complexity, thats been refuted too, nice try though. (I may seem condescending, i don’t think theists are stupid, they’re just wrong[)]

A few things here aside from the obvious. 1) it would be neat to have spanshots of life on earth 6000 years ago, for all sorts of reasons. 2) jtm forgets in the end he’s talking to a scientist. 3) I’m waiting for an excuse to nest that thing with the brackets one level deeper.