[16:59] Egon Spengler: gene, hi [16:59] Ansible Berkman: hello everyone :) [16:59] You: hey egon [16:59] GeoffMcG Xi: hi [16:59] You: Hi all [16:59] Ellie Brewster: Hi Ansible [16:59] Egon Spengler: the video is uploading now :) [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Cordelia Moy: Hi, Ellie and E gon. And Ansible! I've logged in to do my assignment. Hi Gene! [16:59] Ansible Berkman: have fun Cordelia :) [17:00] Egon Spengler: did I just stumble into a class period? [17:00] Ansible Berkman: it's an at-large meeting :) [17:00] Egon Spengler: ah, great [17:00] You: yes, it's my office hours and at-large gathering [17:00] Ansible Berkman: take it away Gene :) [17:00] You: well i'm just here to answer questions and do whatever ppl want me to do :) [17:01] Ellie Brewster: That Cordelia, she shure can talk [17:01] Rebecca Berkman: I'd be very interested to know how people have been participating in the class so far and what has been working or now working for you, if anyone wants to share. [17:01] You: Hi everyone, I don't know if we need to be really formal about this, it depends on what you'd like to do [17:02] Ansible Berkman: it's not her fault Ellie, she's on a wireless connection [17:02] Ironman28 Tenjin: I've downloaded and watched all the lectures online [17:02] Ironman28 Tenjin: but this is my first SL meeting [17:02] You: So are you interested in "taking" the class [17:02] Rebecca Berkman: are you new to SL? [17:02] GeoffMcG Xi: same here; and I've been hitting the readings. [17:02] Ironman28 Tenjin: yes [17:03] Rebecca Berkman: that's cool, both about readings and coming to SL. [17:03] You: Very cool, very exciting [17:03] You: well what is is that you are seeking from the class experience? [17:03] Ironman28 Tenjin: I appreciate it when you address the at large participants in the videos, Rebecca [17:03] Rebecca Berkman: great. [17:03] Ironman28 Tenjin: it makes me feel included! [17:03] Rebecca Berkman: i think it is quite a remarkable example that you all set by participating in this way. [17:04] Ironman28 Tenjin: it's very cool...I wish we could do more [17:04] Rebecca Berkman: you do it because the substance is genuinely valuable to you, and if it isn't, you would stop. [17:04] Aphilo Aarde is Online [17:04] GeoffMcG Xi: thats right, rebecca. [17:04] Holly Suisei: For me, I'm still trying to figure out how the different segments of the class work together [17:04] Rebecca Berkman: the enrolled students are getting grades, so they have a certain amount of coercive force in the mix that isn't exactly in the spirit of the class. [17:05] Ironman28 Tenjin: yeah...and I understand there are limits on the number of people who can participate in SL at one time [17:05] Ironman28 Tenjin: it would be cool if at large people could look on if there's room [17:05] You: Right... so this is the artificial hard limit on the class participation [17:05] Rebecca Berkman: Holly, say a bit more about what you mean. [17:06] Rebecca Berkman: Do you mean the lectures and SL? [17:06] You: for example on thurs we are going to have to "close" the island b/c of the hard limit [17:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: ah [17:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: what's the limit? (out of curiosity) [17:06] You: Ansible can explain more about that, but there are finite resources that we have to prioritize teh officially enrolled students for [17:06] Ansible Berkman: close to 50-60 avatars, depends on activity planned [17:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: interesting [17:06] You: Hi Aphilo [17:06] Ellie Brewster: do you get much lag at 50? [17:07] Ansible Berkman: the limit refers to how much complexity the server can handle [17:07] Ansible Berkman: yes [17:07] Aphilo Aarde: hELLO [17:07] Holly Suisei: I enrolled as an extension student, was put on the waitlist, then encouraged to participate fully, but wasn't sure what that meant... [17:07] Ellie Brewster: What do you think would be an optimal number? [17:07] Ansible Berkman: the more avatars the more it takes for the server to compute our moves, actions etc [17:07] Holly Suisei: It could be me... [17:07] Ansible Berkman: round 40 [17:07] Ellie Brewster: 40 is still a lot. [17:07] Ansible Berkman: yes it is [17:07] Rebecca Berkman: we've been trying to make as full a class experience available as possible for the at-large participants. [17:07] Rebecca Berkman: the enrolled students do a few things every week. [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: they watch the videos and do the readings and then write a journal entry about it. [17:08] Ellie Brewster: Its a great thing you're doing. [17:08] GeoffMcG Xi: i think its remarkabe that you even think about at-large participants [17:08] Aphilo Aarde: Is there a way to participate without being avatar-present, i.e. chat only? [17:08] Ellie Brewster: I was wondering... [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: and they come into SL once for a class meeting here where we do exercises that tie in with the lectures. [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: usually there is an SL-related assignment too. [17:08] You: As the class progresses a lot of it will move over into doing class projects [17:08] Rebecca Berkman: As at-large participants, you can also see the lectures and do the readings. [17:09] Rebecca Berkman: you can do the journals and you can come to Sl and do most of the SL-related assignments. [17:09] Egon Spengler: I feel like the wiki could use a bit more structure, to make the possible points of participation clearer [17:09] Aphilo Aarde: Are we able to use scratch? [17:09] Ironman28 Tenjin: there was one lecture that referred to an upcoming class using "Scratch" to learn about code, but then the next video was abridged and I couldn't find the lesson! [17:09] Rebecca Berkman: during these office hours, we'll also have class-like meetings that can be similar to the ones that the enrolled students have. [17:09] You: I guess I would throw it back to all of you as to what you would like to get out of an experience [17:09] Ellie Brewster: I agree with Egon [17:09] You: I"m not sure we even explained that well to the extension school students... [17:09] Rebecca Berkman: Back to scratch in a minute. [17:10] You: it's weird b/c we are doing 3 different courses [17:10] Rebecca Berkman: I want to address Egon and Ellie's concern first. [17:10] Ironman28 Tenjin: three different levels of the same course? [17:10] Ansible Berkman: excuse me, i'll be right back :) [17:10] Rebecca Berkman: One of our big challenges is to come up with a way to have at-large participation that is scalable and that doesn't take away from the time we are committed to spending for the enrolled students. [17:10] Aphilo Aarde: it is interesting that you're doing three different courses, but mostly about the same argument, in different contexts, law, etc., and about the same texts. [17:11] Rebecca Berkman: So we're hoping to find a way that the wiki can start to develop structure of its own without us superimposing it. [17:11] You: yoiu might think about it as 3 different "tracks" too, or 3 different "audiences" [17:11] Ironman28 Tenjin: yes, the wiki seems like a good tool for that [17:11] GeoffMcG Xi: that seems to be the whole idea of the class--structure without imposition. [17:11] Rebecca Berkman: we're kind of looking for community leaders among the at-large participants who want to make it their project to try to organize their peers to do something great with the resources we're providing. [17:11] Ironman28 Tenjin: we (at large people) can contribute to the wiki, right? [17:11] Rebecca Berkman: And we want to act in a supporting role for those community leaders. [17:11] Ironman28 Tenjin: that's a good idea [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: you can contribute! [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: if any of you want to start organizing, all you have to do is go do it! [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: For scratch, we are not allowed to distribute the link freely because it is still in beta. [17:12] Ironman28 Tenjin: ah [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: but i can give you the link because you are participants if you agree not to distribute it further. [17:12] Aphilo Aarde: Who's interested in working together on a cyberone benkler "Wealth of networks" wiki, combined perhaps with other social theoriests, around some specific questions. [17:12] Rebecca Berkman: if any of you want it, say so and I'll IM it to you. [17:13] Ironman28 Tenjin: that would be great! [17:13] You: Aphilo, that sounds like a great starting point [17:13] GeoffMcG Xi: I'd like to take a look at the link [17:13] Holly Suisei: I'd be interested in both the wiki and access to scratch! [17:13] Aphilo Aarde: I agree not to distribute it further. [17:13] Ironman28 Tenjin: me too! [17:13] GeoffMcG Xi: ditto [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: we don't have a video lesson, but we do have a tutorial and some help pages that are available. [17:13] Holly Suisei: that sounds great [17:13] Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested Rebecca, too, in scratch. [17:13] Rebecca Berkman: You all have access to the wiki already. all you have to do is create an account. [17:13] You: I"m curious tho given this context -- would learning lindenscript be too hard? [17:14] Aphilo Aarde: ok. [17:14] Ironman28 Tenjin: how hard is it? [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: there is information on how to do that on the front page of the wiki (and a link in the upper right corner for doing it). [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: Both Scratch and the wiki are fairly easy. [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: Wiki is easier than scratch. [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: But Scratch is really fun. [17:14] You: Yeah Scratch should be a really much easier way to get intorduced to scripting [17:14] Rebecca Berkman: Since so many of you are interested, I will put the info right into the chat. [17:14] Ironman28 Tenjin: how about lindenscript (relatively)? [17:14] Aphilo Aarde: is scratch like visual basic, or easier? [17:14] Aphilo Aarde: ok. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: It is much easier that visual basic or LSL. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: It is a graphical programming language. [17:15] Egon Spengler: Also, if anyone is interested in reading a blog post I wrote about CyberOne, I think it makes a good jumping in point for seeing how to participate [17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: and for those of use with no programming experience, are we in over our heads (not including Wiki). [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: instead of writing code, you fit puzzle pieces together. [17:15] You: Geoff, not at all [17:15] Ironman28 Tenjin: Egon: that would be great [17:15] Egon Spengler: it's at: http://www.getdemocracy.com/news/2006/09/a-harvard-course-available-on-democracy/#postcomment [17:15] Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested Egon. [17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: oh good. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: It is intended for people with no programming experience. [17:15] Rebecca Berkman: And you could also send email to the course account with questions. [17:15] You: I think if you want to learn programming, Scratch would be a great introduction [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: On our course website there is a link to a page called Scratch on the right hand sidebar. [17:16] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Egon. [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: If you click on it, you will get to a page on the website for scratch with a link to password protected download page. [17:16] You: for those who have some technical background, learning to script in this world might be very attractive, but not at all required for the course [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: the username for that page is [...] [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: the password is [...] [17:16] Ironman28 Tenjin: cool! thank you! [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: IM me if you have trouble getting to the page. [17:16] GeoffMcG Xi: thanks. [17:16] Rebecca Berkman: Scratch is really really fun. [17:17] GeoffMcG Xi: why? [17:17] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Rebecca. [17:17] You: becca, is more instruction necessary for folks to start scratching [17:17] GeoffMcG Xi: I know nothing about it. [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: But we did that for the law students because they wouldn't have anything as cool as SL to play with. [17:17] You: (Though they could if they wanted to, and some might) [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: For me, I'm very interested in learning scripting in SL so that I can do stuff in here. [17:17] Rebecca Berkman: No particularly, but it will take some perseverance. [17:17] Ironman28 Tenjin: so, the students who attend the physical lectures don't participate in SL? [17:18] Rebecca Berkman: It is a good idea to watch the abridged lecture from tuesday to get a pep talk from my dad about perseverance when something like that is frustrating. [17:18] You: this week is the crossover week in which law students will come here [17:18] You: wehther they choose to stay is up to them and the shape the proejcts take [17:19] Ironman28 Tenjin: ah...when you said the island would be closed on Thursday, does that mean it will be closed to at large participants? [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: It will only be closed from 8-11pm EST. [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: Otherwise it will be open as usual. [17:19] Ironman28 Tenjin: ah...okay [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: We may not even have to close it, actually, except from 9-10. [17:19] Rebecca Berkman: Hi Grace. [17:19] You: Hi grace! [17:19] Aphilo Aarde: Hi Grace1 [17:19] You: Hey! [17:19] Grace McDunnough: Hi, sorry I am late. I have poetry ;-) [17:19] Grace McDunnough: Hello all [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: cool. [17:20] GeoffMcG Xi: hiya [17:20] You: Actually this week the topic for lecture will be synthetic worlds [17:20] Aphilo Aarde: Welcome back, Ansible [17:20] You: Ansible and I will be the humble panelists [17:20] Ansible Berkman: :) ty [17:20] You: Egon here has prepared a video to introduce the concept to the law students which we can watch in a bit [17:20] Rebecca Berkman: The lecture this week should be amazing. [17:21] Rebecca Berkman: We are discussing virtual worlds from a theoretical perspective. [17:21] Egon Spengler: I think Ansible will need to queue it [17:21] You: I have to say (and will say again on Tues) that I'm kind of an outsider still looking in on these wpaces [17:21] Rebecca Berkman: Basically what it means for all of us to be here doing what we are doing and what kind of governance and norms we can set up for ourselves. [17:21] You: For those of you just showing up we've been talking about what role "at large" participants can play in the course [17:21] Aphilo Aarde: I have some questions about the world of SL. [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: So far we've found that at-large participants want a bit more structure and more of a way to interact directly with each other. [17:22] Grace McDunnough: That would be great. [17:22] You: We are encouraging people who are not officially enrolled in the course to identify what they'd like to get out of the course and organize towards getting it [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: We have the wiki as a space for that, but it is still seeking some leaders to help make it work better for people as a space. [17:22] Rebecca Berkman: we could also think about ways for the at-large participants to help create community in SL. [17:22] Holly Suisei: I think it would be cool to meet regularly [17:22] You: so if some of you have a particular interest, please by all means let's discuss what it might be and how we can support it [17:23] Aphilo Aarde: I'd like that, as well. Getting to know folks in cyberspace is more difficult than in real life. [17:23] Rebecca Berkman: For instance, it would be great if people were interested in organizing some discussion groups about the lectures and readings. [17:23] Ansible Berkman: if you start the movie from your control pannel and check the screen i just put up, you'll be able to check out the virtual world movie Dean/Egon prepared [17:23] You: Becca and I will be providing regular office hours (like this one) but we strongly encourage you to organize your own study groups [17:23] Holly Suisei: I'm interested in the ideas of argument and rhetoric that form the foundation for the course, and then the ways people can create some kind of educational community that's not necessarily "academic" [17:23] Rebecca Berkman: If you guys are interested, we could try some of the introductory activities now that we did with the enrolled Extension students on Thursday night. [17:24] Egon Spengler: can you pause it ansible? [17:24] Ansible Berkman: anyone can pause it on their screens [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, the ideas about persuasion in cyberspace are very interesting. [17:24] Egon Spengler: oh [17:24] Rebecca Berkman: At the core of it is the basic fact that we don't have coercive force here in the same way as in RL. [17:24] Aphilo Aarde: Let's try some of the introductory exercises. Also, per Benkler, where does the market intersect with nonmarket peer production of information? [17:25] Rebecca Berkman: So we have to win people over by really finding a way to speak to them in a way that is meaningful to them and persuasive to them. [17:25] Rebecca Berkman: It is a very hard challenge and a serious skill. [17:25] GeoffMcG Xi: why is that? [17:25] Rebecca Berkman: Aphilo, I think you are posing one of the biggest challenges for the advocates of openness. [17:25] GeoffMcG Xi: is it a matter of how to speak over the chatter? [17:26] You: I think it's important not to draw too sharp a distinction between virtual organizing and the same activity in RL [17:26] Aphilo Aarde: There's an ongoing articulation between these two 'spheres', and in this course, too. It's interesting. [17:26] Rebecca Berkman: It is one thing to advocate openness when we have a separate, closed market economy that gives all of us the freedom and financial security to allow us to spend our free time on open, collaborative, non-market activies. [17:26] You: After all as Benkler notes in his chart, there are lots of RL activities that have been going on for years that are non-market, cooperative [17:26] Rebecca Berkman: it is another thing entirely to propose that the non-market can replace the market. [17:26] Hart Zhao: a recent concpet I have been discussing is the concept of the limited liability persona - [17:26] Egon Spengler is Offline [17:26] Aphilo Aarde: that is quite radical . . . [17:26] Ellie Brewster: You are a musician, Rebecca? [17:27] Grace McDunnough: I think it is a matter of value creation [17:27] You: churches, voluntary associations, political parties, etc. have all been institutions that for centuries have operated outside the strict market economy [17:27] Rebecca Berkman: i am not sure we are arguing for replacing market-based activity, but possibly just for setting up norms and laws that encourage a balance between the two. [17:27] GeoffMcG Xi: can you give us a for instiance rebecca? [17:27] GeoffMcG Xi: i like the copyleft example from early lectures [17:27] Rebecca Berkman: one thing i am very interested in is ways in which people can set up for-profit business enterprises that do not rely on proprietary ownership of information goods. [17:28] Rebecca Berkman: well, for instance, i can spend my free time contributing to wikipedia, but it doesn't pay me. [17:28] Hart Zhao: like reputation? [17:28] Aphilo Aarde: I think Benkler is even making the case for a signficant domain, that re-distributes information production wealth, even dramatically. [17:28] Rebecca Berkman: if i didn't have another job that paid me, i would be unlikely to have the free time to spend editing wikipedia. [17:28] GeoffMcG Xi: i meant a legal arrangement [17:28] Rebecca Berkman: so we need to have some way for our economy to produce the goods and services we need so that we can participate in things that are meaningful to us for non-market reasons. [17:29] Rebecca Berkman: i wish i had an example. [17:29] Ellie Brewster: You were talking about music in the lecture. [17:29] You: For any of you who are so inclined, I actually see this as a weird fulfillment of Marx's vision of socialism [17:29] Rebecca Berkman: if you are asking for an example of a non-proprietary business model, one might argue that software actually has one though it isn't often used. [17:29] Aphilo Aarde: Ansible, is it possible to go back over the past 2 weeks, and re-visit these conversations, as well as avatar actions for study purposes. How much of this onoing developing world archived? Rebecca, Gene? [17:30] Rebecca Berkman: for instance, it is possible to sell software without locking up the code under copyright indefinitely. [17:30] You: Well benkler definitely talks about software being something that in the majority of cases is relationship- rather than product-based [17:30] You: the other example he gives is most law firms [17:30] GeoffMcG Xi: i'm with you on that. And i think there are several non-proprietary business examples. But how does the legal environment encourage such associations? [17:30] Rebecca Berkman: it could be locked up only for the time that was necessary to get the first-to-market benefit and then released to the public domain after that. [17:30] GeoffMcG Xi: copyright certainly diiscourages it. [17:30] Rebecca Berkman: the copyright law currently discourages it because it is set up to favor people who own a lot of rights to thing. [17:30] Rebecca Berkman: like big media companies. [17:31] Egon Spengler is Online [17:31] Polar Slushee whispers: Cherry Blast [17:31] Rebecca Berkman: copyright law that placed more things in the public domain would allow more creations to be made using those things by people who do not have a lot of capital to begin with. [17:31] Rebecca Berkman: the whole creative commons idea is one way of using the copyright law to that effect. [17:31] Grace McDunnough: Wasn't copyright origianlly intended to protect individuals? [17:32] Ansible Berkman: Aphilo -- i am certainly archiving some of the chat here, but mostly for myself...if it's of interest, i can provide online transcripts [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: a creator can put creations under a limited copyright that allows the creator to get the benefits she wants while also freeing it for other people to use. [17:32] Grace McDunnough: It wasn't a "big media" construct... was it? [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: there were a lot of authors of the original copyright policy. [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: basically all of the federalists. [17:32] Hart Zhao: online transcripts should be a standard for these discussions [17:32] Rebecca Berkman: and i believe many of them saw it as directly connected to individual creators. [17:33] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks. Yes, I'm potentially interested, Ansible> [17:33] GeoffMcG Xi: so, it seems as if we have an opt-in option, where artists give an open license to the ublic. and we have a status quo revision optiion. [17:33] Rebecca Berkman: but just by giving the creators the ability to sell their rights to others they set up a scheme in which companies could own and benefit from rights. [17:33] Grace McDunnough: My study indicates it was to "promote" creativity [17:33] Rebecca Berkman: once those companies got rich, they kept getting the laws changed to extend their rights and protect their assets. [17:33] Aphilo Aarde: Ansible, can one archive avatar actions? [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: there is a question of what actually promotes creativity. [17:34] GeoffMcG Xi: good question! [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: intellectual property forms the inputs and the outputs for other intellectual property. [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: if you lock up enough of the inputs, it limits the "raw materials" available to other creators. [17:34] Ironman28 Tenjin: are you saying that creativity always builds on the past? [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: it can actually limit the amount of creativity possible. [17:34] GeoffMcG Xi: shoulders of giants as Newton said [17:34] Rebecca Berkman: i wouldn't necessarily say always, but certainly most of the time. [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: yes, shoulders of giants, exactly. [17:35] kimseng Cao: if you dont mind me asking is this a class session? [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: it isn't a formal class, but it is a discussion related to a class! [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: musicians give a very concrete example these days. [17:35] kimseng Cao: okie. could I ask another question - what is the purpose of using this format to teach the class? [17:35] Rebecca Berkman: most music being created doesn't entirely use sounds that are newly recorded. [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: there is a great range of creativity based on previously recorded sounds and synthesized sounds. [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: but a lot of that is locked up and technically off-limits. [17:36] Rebecca Berkman: good question! [17:36] Aphilo Aarde: Kimseng - it allows us to lessen the challenges of not being proximate to one another - the death of distance arguemtn. [17:36] Ansible Berkman: im sorry everyone, i have to take off. Becca or Gene, if you can save the conversation i miss and send it to me, i'll put a transcript up [17:36] Ansible Berkman: gnite everyone and thanks for coming :) [17:36] Grace McDunnough: Nite Ansible [17:36] Ironman28 Tenjin: bye [17:36] Ansible Berkman is Offline [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: good night. [17:37] You: thanks becca for those great thoughts and insights :) [17:37] Ellie Brewster: night Ansible! [17:37] kimseng Cao: i am also a teacher - i am just wondering wheter this format adds anything [17:37] Aphilo Aarde: Goon inght, ansible. [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: it also makes a difference for me that we can see each other sitting here. [17:37] GeoffMcG Xi: so would it be correct to create a two part typology: the Bohemian (non-pecuniary factors motivate creativity) and the industrial (for lack of a better term)? [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: in chat room we only see the names of the people who are talking, it doesn't give the same experience. [17:37] Ironman28 Tenjin: yes...this model seems to me to be about hybridity [17:37] You: kimseng, I'm keeping a blog on that as we'd go, would love your own observations if you are doing something similar or want to join us [17:37] kimseng Cao: i see [17:37] Rebecca Berkman: yes, in a sense, Geoff. [17:37] Aphilo Aarde: I think seeing the conversation typed allows for a qualitatively different type of discussion. [17:38] kimseng Cao: gene what is your blog address? [17:38] Rebecca Berkman: i would like to think of it not so much as bohemian, but open. [17:38] You: blogs.law.harvard.edu/vvvv (that's 4 "v"s) [17:38] Rebecca Berkman: that is, i can see open and non-market ventures, but also open and market ventures. [17:38] kimseng Cao: gene i dont think I am ready to do anything like this...thanks [17:38] GeoffMcG Xi: ok, i'm not wedded to the term. [17:38] Rebecca Berkman: also closed and non-market, and closed and market [17:39] kimseng Cao: well the fact that everyone is here talking about copyright must mean this class is working [17:39] GeoffMcG Xi: wait, does that make four types? [17:39] You: I don't have benkler in front of me but he has a typology laid out in chapter... 2? [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: yes, two axes. four types. [17:39] GeoffMcG Xi: great. thanks for clarifying [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: hmm, i don't either. [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: i don't know if it maps onto this. [17:39] Hart Zhao: this unprecedented collaboration [17:39] You: he actually had 6, and they were slightly different [17:39] Rebecca Berkman: what are they? [17:40] You: he was also using it as a construct to get somewhere else rather than make a conclusion or use that as the only way to see the world [17:40] You: I can go run & get th book , hold on [17:40] Rebecca Berkman: hmm, i'm not sure i understand what you mean by that. [17:40] Rebecca Berkman: but i think we're trying to do the same thing. [17:40] kimseng Cao: sorry someone was talking about transcripts is it available anywhere [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: my issue is that i'm still having a hard time imagining the open, for-profit enterprises. [17:41] You: actually he collapsed those 4 you have into one of the axes [17:41] Imo Xi: cool [17:41] GeoffMcG Xi: apart from music remixing, you mean? [17:41] You: Open, for-profit enterprises include many software services companeis [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: we can take a transcript from this chat and post it on the wiki if that would be useful. [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: ah, yes. [17:41] You: the other example he gave was law firms [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: and he also mentions that musicians can make money by doing performances. [17:41] GeoffMcG Xi: well, isn't it possible to have a business model based on ad revenue and not on the creative prroduct itself? [17:41] Rebecca Berkman: i find that model unsatisfying. [17:42] kimseng Cao: i think that would be useful for teachers who might want to use this format [17:42] Aphilo Aarde: Might Vanguage mutual funds be a successful open, for-profit enterprise? [17:42] You: e.g. many law firms publish and teach classes, but they don't make money off that -- they do the classes to develop relationships, and then they charge for the relationships [17:42] Grace McDunnough: As do I [17:42] Rebecca Berkman: yes, certainly ad revenue is the biggest one we've seen. [17:42] You: in a model in which you are sellin gads, you are essentially selling the relationship [17:42] Rebecca Berkman: what is vanguage? [17:42] Grace McDunnough: Ad revenue oftens depends on either mass or licensed content [17:42] You: musicians who give away music and rely on concert tix sales also rely on the monetization of the relationship [17:43] Rebecca Berkman: The thing i don't like about the service model is that it seems that many musicians don't even make music that would be good in performance and they don't necessarily have lives that lend themselves to performance. [17:43] Aphilo Aarde: vanguard - typo- mutual funds. [17:43] GeoffMcG Xi: hmmm, can you flesh out what is meant by monetization of the relationship? [17:43] You: fundamentally tho, there is still SOME basic IP assumptions going on with many of these open relationships [17:43] GeoffMcG Xi: is it different than "selling?" [17:43] kimseng Cao: one last question before i go get my morning coffee - when is the next lecture? [17:43] Rebecca Berkman: the next lecture happens tomorrow, and another on tuesday. [17:43] You: For example, if anyone could take your music and claim it was theirs, it would be hard to build a relationship, which requires some amount of trust [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: they will be available online probably on monday night and tuesday night. [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: and also here in the library on berkman island! [17:44] kimseng Cao: thanks rebecca - what time tomorrow? it is 5.44 pm in my world [17:44] Aphilo Aarde: index mutual funds are a form of openness . . . [17:44] You: "monetization of the relationship" = any means you can think of to make money off the fact that you've built a relationships [17:44] Rebecca Berkman: the tuesday lecture should be one of the best of the whole class! [17:44] You: Aphilo, I thnk that is right to a degree [17:44] You: So would you compare an index fund to, for example, the Linux operating system? [17:45] kimseng Cao: i will try to come for the lecture - could you tell me where the class time table is - i will try to figure out the time difference [17:45] GeoffMcG Xi: alright, gene. so not just selling, but theft, larceny, pprostitution, etc. [17:45] Aphilo Aarde: anyone can open an index mutual fund . . . yes with linux. . . [17:45] You: Even tho anyone could have access to the basic "thing" (index, software), what you want is someone to provide you with theservice [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: the lectures don't happen in real-time for those who aren't in the law class. [17:45] Egon Spengler: kimseng, I think we're talking about two different things [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: you can watch them whenever it is convenient for you. [17:45] Egon Spengler: lecture = recorded lecture [17:45] Rebecca Berkman: just come to the class website or to the library area here to watch them! [17:45] Egon Spengler: you might mean inworld discussion? [17:45] kimseng Cao: oh is it open to the public [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: there will probably be another in-world discussion here next week, probably a week from this tuesday. [17:46] Ellie Brewster: for us, or for extension? [17:46] kimseng Cao: egon - yeah what about inworld discussion? any time fixed [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: the physical lectures aren't open to the public, but they are recorded and made available to the public on the web and in here. [17:46] Egon Spengler: inworld discussion = this type of chat [17:46] You: Geoff, not sure what you mean with those other examples [17:46] Egon Spengler: I guess we should figure out some common definitions [17:46] Rebecca Berkman: for extension there will a meeting this thursday night and for at-large it will be the tuesday after this one. [17:47] Aphilo Aarde: what's the best way to generate focus specific inworld discussions? [17:47] kimseng Cao: rebecca so sorry to be such a bother. i am not a harvard student - can i access the lecture? [17:47] Rebecca Berkman: yes, you can! [17:47] You: becca what is the best starting-point to get to understand the class? the blog? [17:47] kimseng Cao: thanks rebecca - how do I do that? [17:47] Ironman28 Tenjin: Rebecca is there a schedule of upcoming meetings? [17:47] Rebecca Berkman: go to http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone and click on the lecture video link on the navigation bar. [17:47] kimseng Cao: thanks a lot. sorry to distract you guys [17:47] GeoffMcG Xi: well, i'm trying to get a grasp on profit driven production across both open and non-open creative organizations. [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: there isn't a schedule of upcoming meetings for at-large participants, but we'll send out announcements on the email list. [17:48] Hart Zhao: is there an agenda for this discussion? [17:48] Ironman28 Tenjin: cool [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: Again, we'd like to encourage you to schedule your own meetings too. [17:48] You: Hart, this is pretty much open discussion at this point [17:48] You: we seem to be trying to nail down some of the core concepts of the class [17:48] Rebecca Berkman: If you want to schedule one, let us know when you're hosting it and we can advertise it on the email list for you. [17:48] kimseng Cao: bye all - you all have been too kind- I am off my morning cofee [17:48] Grace McDunnough: Is there an in world group fot the at large participants? [17:48] Aphilo Aarde: lots of hand dancing . . . :) = open discussion? [17:48] You: For those of you who also like to pursue this asynchronously, we have many fora for that too, all linked from the URL becca gave [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: One thing you could do with your own meeting would be to pick a specific topic so that the discussion could be focused on a particular topic. [17:49] Aphilo Aarde: bye kimseng.. . . [17:49] Ironman28 Tenjin: that's a good idea [17:49] Hart Zhao: I am interested in the project part of the course, as well - what forum should we use to organise ourselves ? g [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: there is a group for at-large participants. [17:49] Hart Zhao: excellent [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: Ansible Berkman is administering it. [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: She can add you to it if you IM her. [17:49] Grace McDunnough: Thanks [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: I have to get going too. [17:49] Egon Spengler: Hart, the wiki is the best place to organize projects [17:49] You: IM her and ask to be added to the group [17:49] You: she will get the IM when she next logs in [17:49] Rebecca Berkman: I would be interested in having more in-depth discussions of some of the ideas that we've discussed tonight. [17:50] GeoffMcG Xi: me too. can i propose an informal meetin here on tuesday? [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: If someone organizes meetings on particular topics, I will certainly try to come! [17:50] Egon Spengler: if we do schedule another at-large meeting, we might want to come up w/ a few questions or topics [17:50] Ellie Brewster: Thats very generous of you, rebecca. [17:50] Aphilo Aarde: I would, as well, Becca . . . What e-mail lists can we use? [17:50] Egon Spengler: something in the wiki, to get everyone thinking about stuff beforehand [17:50] You: Right, conversation might be more focused if you had specific ideas or questions when you arrive [17:50] Aphilo Aarde: Yes, thanks, Rebecca. [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: Egon, when do you think the video from tuesday lecture will be available in-world and on the website? [17:50] Ellie Brewster: Yes, good idea. [17:50] Rebecca Berkman: do you know? [17:51] Egon Spengler: they are usually up within a few hours [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: because I think that would be a great lecture to discuss at an informal meeting. [17:51] Egon Spengler: about 6pm EST [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: maybe you could have a viewing party and a discussion on Tuesday night? [17:51] Egon Spengler: and no later than 24 hours (unless something catastrophic happens) [17:51] Hart Zhao: 6pm is much better as I am in London [17:51] You: Whoever is organizing the meeting (and we encourage any of you to do it) can then figure out an agenda of sorts [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: Or on wednesday if the updates go well this week... [17:51] You: A viewing part is a good moment to get ppl together [17:51] Egon Spengler: I think that would be cool [17:51] Rebecca Berkman: ok, I'm going to sign off. [17:52] Ironman28 Tenjin: thanks, Rebecca [17:52] You: by becca :) [17:52] GeoffMcG Xi: thanks rebecca! [17:52] Grace McDunnough: Good night Rebecca, thanks. [17:52] Holly Suisei: thanks! [17:52] Ellie Brewster: Thanks [17:52] Egon Spengler: see you tomorrow, Becca [17:52] Hart Zhao: thanks [17:52] Rebecca Berkman: As always, feel free to email us at harvard.cyberone@gmail.com. [17:52] Aphilo Aarde: Bye, Rebecca. and thanks! [17:52] Rebecca Berkman: goodnight. [17:52] Rebecca Berkman is Offline [17:52] You: I've got another ~10 minutes if ppl want to keep jumping down the rabit hole [17:52] Aphilo Aarde: good night. [17:52] Ellie Brewster: I've got a question [17:52] You: the in-laws are in town for the weekend :) [17:53] You: shoot away! [17:53] GeoffMcG Xi: oye! [17:53] Ellie Brewster: We've been talking about hte market and the "open market", if you want to call it that -- where does education fit in? [17:53] You: Well, what do you mean by education? [17:54] Ellie Brewster: Well, as a university teacher, I am feeling more and more constrained by copyright [17:54] Ellie Brewster: cant even sneeze, and somebody puts a copyright on it. [17:54] GeoffMcG Xi: why? [17:54] GeoffMcG Xi: there is an educational use provision. [17:54] Aphilo Aarde: nonmarket education, without degree conferral, might refer to at-large participants. [17:54] You: That's a great example of how IP functions -- maybe you can explain more how it affects you? [17:55] Ellie Brewster: Use of materials becomes more and more expensive ... fair use seems to me to be overly restricted [17:56] Ellie Brewster: Universities are using business models that seem to me to be very unhelpful to real education [17:56] You: In response to Geoff, there certianly is a Fair use exception, but there is a difference between the theory and the practice [17:56] GeoffMcG Xi: more expensiive for you, or your students. I know I have foregone assigning casebooks because all US Supreme COurt decisions are online. [17:56] Aphilo Aarde: Materials for this course, so far, are at no cost. [17:56] You: a lot of university attorneys (just like other corporate entities) err on the side of caution, so copyright takes up more and more of the space [17:56] Ironman28 Tenjin: fair use isn't restrictive so much as the way it is interpreted by individual institutions [17:57] Ellie Brewster: exactly. they are terrified of overstepping some boundary [17:57] Aphilo Aarde: I suppose Berkeley, Michigan and Virginia take a close-to-nonmarket approach. [17:57] Ironman28 Tenjin: the boundaries become more restrictive the less they are stretcheed [17:57] GeoffMcG Xi: why is that? [17:57] You: I think this is one reason why it's improtant in law to think about practical consequences and not just what theoretically should happen [17:57] GeoffMcG Xi: about berkeley? [17:58] Ironman28 Tenjin: where wouldl MIT's Open Courseware fit into the non-market grid? [17:58] Aphilo Aarde: These are high quality state institutions. [17:58] GeoffMcG Xi: so? [17:58] Grace McDunnough: The course material is available via the web.' [17:58] Aphilo Aarde: They don't operate as much by a market model [17:58] Hart Zhao: have to run thanks ... see you here on Tuesday.. [17:58] You: bu hart [17:58] Aphilo Aarde: by hart. [17:58] Grace McDunnough: Bye Hart [17:58] You: bye i mean [17:58] Ellie Brewster: bye [17:59] You: well going back to the original question I think it's important to look at educational institutions as both creators and consumers of IP [17:59] Egon Spengler: I'm gonna take off too, will see you all later [17:59] You: after all many of them are making good $$$ from patents and such [17:59] Grace McDunnough: Bye Egon [17:59] GeoffMcG Xi: bye egon [18:00] Ironman28 Tenjin: bye egon [18:00] You: bye egon, thanks for the awesome video work! [18:00] You: tuesday's lecture will be awesom e:) [18:00] You: see you tomorrow [18:00] Egon Spengler: if anyone wants to organize an inworld viewing of the next lecture, post times on the wiki [18:00] Egon Spengler: bye [18:00] GeoffMcG Xi: mostly on pharma patents [18:00] You: I only have a few minutes left as well [18:00] Egon Spengler is Offline [18:00] Ellie Brewster: Before anyone else goes, do you all know about groups in SL? [18:00] Ironman28 Tenjin: no [18:00] GeoffMcG Xi: no [18:00] Aphilo Aarde: I haven't used them before, Ellie. Will you invite us all, please? [18:01] Ellie Brewster: I could creat e a group which would allow members of this group to IM each other, and know if each other is in-world [18:01] Aphilo Aarde: sounds great. [18:01] You: That's a great idea [18:01] GeoffMcG Xi: great idea [18:01] Grace McDunnough: Ansible is admin of a group Ellie [18:01] Ellie Brewster: Its pretty easy, costs about sixty cents. I'll start one if you like [18:01] Ironman28 Tenjin: good idea [18:01] Holly Suisei: great [18:01] You: You might also want to IM ansible to be added to the at-large group for the class as a whole [18:01] Aphilo Aarde: I don't have any linden dollars, yet, I think. [18:01] You: obviously this is a good time for most of you so maybe a lot of you have similar schedules for the sake of meeting and doing projects? [18:02] Ellie Brewster: OK I will call it Cyberone, if that's not taken. Wait till tomorrow, then look for the group in the search menu. [18:02] Holly Suisei: excellent - thanks! [18:02] Ironman28 Tenjin: cool...thanks, Ellie [18:02] Ellie Brewster: This is a great time for me. [18:02] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks. [18:02] GeoffMcG Xi: nice [18:02] Holly Suisei: And for me... [18:02] You: This is also my regular weekly office hour [18:03] You: I will be here every Sun, 8-9pm Eastern [18:03] Aphilo Aarde: I would prefer between 4 and 6 on Sundays. [18:03] Aphilo Aarde: Good to know, Gene. [18:03] You: I'm sure there are other ppl who have other time preferences, but that's up to all of you to organize [18:03] You: we pretty much try to practice what we preach, or better yet, get you to practice it [18:03] You: :) [18:03] Ironman28 Tenjin: yes...thanks, Gene